German Shepherd Forum

blitzen · Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:01 am Post subject:

When xrayed, the dog is placed on it's back with one tech on the head-end holding the dog by the elbows, another tech at the other end manipulatiing the rear legs. They must "square-up" the dog before snapping the xrays as the pelvis needs to be symetrical. On the final xray, you can tell if the dog has been correctly positioned by comparing one side of the pevis to the other, both sides must be equal. One side of the film must be marked with an "L" or a "R", most vets use the "L" designation. The side marked "L" is the left rear leg of the dog when standing.

Just before the film is snapped, the tech holding the elbows pulls the dog toward him/her lifting the dog's spine just off the xray table. This helps to get the dog square and to make the dog more comfortable if it's not completely anesthesized. The tech assigned to the rear grasps the dog just below the knees pulling the dog toward him/her while rotating the knees inwardly. Thus the dog is "stretched" just before taking the xray. This is done to demonstrated how deeply the balls are or are not seated in the sockets and will show any luxation. It is also done to show where the joint capsule attaches to the ball, a small fllattened area in all dogs with normal hips. Before snapping the film both techs also eyeball the positioning and adjust the dog accordingly. So as the xray is taken the dog is being pulled in both directions by it's elbows and rear legs. This may give you a better idea of why a dog that is a "close call" should probalbly be deeply anesthesized and re-xrayed assuming it was not done the way initially. A wide awake dog can fight the manipulation and it is possible for that dog to get a better rating than it really deserves.

This is the manual way to do a hip xray, some vets use a frame to which they strap the dog, some use wedges place between the legs to use as a fulcrum to try to force the hips out of their sockets. They feel this is a better way to determine luxation. The Penn Hip scheme uses a fulcrum in addition to palpatating for luxation.

It's important that the xray show the entire area of the pelvis from the tip of the wings to just below the knees. It shows if the dog is symetrical and if the knees were rotated inwardly. If you look at the film of Molly's excellent dog, you can see that the knee on the left side is not exaclty where it should be ocmpared to the knee on the right. That's another reason why that left hip looks just a tad more shallow. Had that knee been where it should have been that hip would have looked exactly like the other. The OFA readers recognized that and rated him excellent.

The skill of the tech and the quality of the film can easily make the difference between a good and an excellent, a fair and a good and sometimes a normal dog may be refused an OFA number if the film is not a good one. OFA does not always return poor quality films, they sometimes read them and issue a concensus. It behooves you to learn how to recoginze a poor quality xray.

I'd like to know the age of Lonewolf's dog and would like see more of the pelvis and the knees on this xray, but I agree with Molly that that is an xray of a GSD with good hip conformation for the reasons she has stated. If it were a close call, maybe a question on the depth or seating of one or both hips, then one would need to see the entire pelvis and the knees to make an final call.

The other xrays have been rated as moderately dysplastic for reasons Molly has described.

eichenluft · Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:05 am Post subject:

Another example of very straight positioning - I'm sure we will see some that have not-straight positioning, and then you will see why positioning really does affect the hip rating, or how good or bad the hips appear to be. Betty's x-rays are perfectly straight and correctly positioned. The sockets are nice and deep and round, and the femur heads are seated well. They could be seated better, but if this is a young dog it could be normal juvenile laxity. The femur heads could be rounder, but they are "clean" without any edges or spurs. The femur necks are not thickened at all. I would also guess that these hips came back "Good".

molly
_________________
Eichenluft Working German Shepherd Dogs
home of V-Eagle v Eichenluft Schh3, FH,IPO3,KKl-1lbz,OFA Good.
4 Eichenluft Dogs competed in 2005 Schh3 National Championships!
Over 40 working-titled Eichenluft dogs.
http://workinggermanshepherd.com

blitzen · Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:11 am Post subject:

Agree with Molly again, I was ready to also say that is a perfectly positioned xray and the best we've seen so far. Another check point for the positioning is where the femurs are superimposed over the pelvis. In this film they are exactly where they should be on each side - perfectly symetrical. Great xray by a vet staff who knew what they were doing.
_________________
"What happens to a dream deferred? Does it dry up like a raisin in the sun?...Or does it explode?" - Langston Hughes

ZalDante · Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:13 am Post subject:

Betty I sent u a PM!!!!!

_________________
Haus Vonzal German Shepherds
www.hausvonzal.com

lonewulf · Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:21 am Post subject:

Excellent analysis of Betty's film, Molly & Blitzen! The alignment is extremely good, one of the best that I've seen. At 6 months it is a young dog and you can see the line on the left side where the head of the femur has not yet fused with the neck as would be expected at this age. This dog would rightly qualify at least a rating of GOOD at 24 months.
_________________
The Power of the Teacher lies in the submission of the student...
www.vombhairav.com
V (USA) Juneau vom Haus Tyson SchH 3 x 6; Kkl-1; HOT; G- NE REgionals 2008; 2008 USA Nationals competitor
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/picturegallery/6551.html

BettyL · Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:36 am Post subject:

Thanks everyone! I did Carlo's xrays 6 days after he turned 6 mos old because if there was ANY doubt about his hips, he was going back to his breeder. Grace asked me to do them early because she didn't want me to "waste" to much time training a dog that ended up having HD.

My Vet is AWESOME and has been doing xrays for years! He's been "right on" reading the xrays. He told me Taser would go Good for sure, maybe excellent (he OFA'd Good). He told me Cayman would prelim Good without a doubt (he did!). When he told me that Carlo would prelim Good, I had no doubts so I didn't send them into OFA. Plus, I had Molly look at them right after they were done LOL.

I wish Frieda's xrays were done on digital, but my vet didn't have the digital machine until this past Nov. When I have hers done again, I will post them. She has severe HD. Taser's and Cayman's were also done on film, so I don't have those to share. Cayman will be getting his 2 yr oFA xrays done either this month or next month. I'll post them as soon as I get them.
_________________
~~Betty~~

Home to:
Bismarch, BH,CGC, TT, TD
Frieda
Taser, BH, AD, CGC , TT and 2/3 of the CD
Cayman vom Nordsturm, SchH 2, BH, AD,CGC, TT
Carlo vom Tauglichkeit, BH, AD

saddlebred16 · Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:38 am Post subject:

Ill go with OFA good on Betty's x-rays. The results were posted on the others before I got to them. lol. Betty's x-ray has awesome alignmenta nd Im jealous of the digital quality! We have the old style x-ray here. anyway, I would think the femur heads would need to be more rounded to go excellant, so ill say OFA good, but it was a tough call!
_________________
Jen
UCD, UCH, SG Rebel, BH, CGC, 2/3 of CD, 2x Total Dog, TDI, DNA
UCH Bullet, CGC, TDI, DNA
SG Laika, CGC, TDI, DNA
Nemo, CGC, TDI

Waiting over the bridge:
UCD Ranger, BH, SD, CGC, TDI 11/21/04-8/7/09
Forever would have been too short

BettyL · Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:46 am Post subject:

I think a elbows are just as important. Maybe a thread for those xrays?

BTW everyone, I'm going to let my vet know how good he is!! LOL I understand that there are not many vets that don't know how to correctly position a dog.

Jen, I bugged the crap out of my vet to get a digital xray machine. I told him that more and more people were purchasing dogs from out of state or out of the county and film xrays were a pain, espcially if the breeder wanted to see them! Now, I can email the pictures to my dogs breeders!
_________________
~~Betty~~

Home to:
Bismarch, BH,CGC, TT, TD
Frieda
Taser, BH, AD, CGC , TT and 2/3 of the CD
Cayman vom Nordsturm, SchH 2, BH, AD,CGC, TT
Carlo vom Tauglichkeit, BH, AD

eichenluft · Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject:

anyone who has "film" x-rays, it still works fine if you take the x-rays to the vet, borrow a room with a light board for a few minutes - put the x-rays up on the board, turn off the lights in the room, and take pictures of them - with digital camera, or regular camera - they turn out pretty well. Most of the x-rays I have "on file" on my computer were done this way, as my vet doesn't have a digital x-ray machine either.

molly
_________________
Eichenluft Working German Shepherd Dogs
home of V-Eagle v Eichenluft Schh3, FH,IPO3,KKl-1lbz,OFA Good.
4 Eichenluft Dogs competed in 2005 Schh3 National Championships!
Over 40 working-titled Eichenluft dogs.
http://workinggermanshepherd.com

GSDBESTK9 · Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:49 am Post subject:

Here are Gala v. Landholz hip x-rays done the day after her 1st birthday:

_________________
GSDBESTK9
Sam, CGC, NA, NAJ, NAC, O-NJC, S-TN-N, O-TG-N, WV-N, TN-O, S-TN-O
Ultro v. Johnson-Haus, BH, CGC, TN-N
Gala v. Landholz, SchH1
Aslan v. Zioner Berg
Tara v. Kirchberghof SchH1
Evi van Huize Dimano SchH1

ZalDante · Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:58 am Post subject:

Why is it you see more of the dogs from Germany with results reading
A1 =excellent more times than OFA results........I dont think I have seen ANY OFA result come back excellent.......its usually good.........is it very rare to see OFA Excellent?
_________________
Haus Vonzal German Shepherds
www.hausvonzal.com

eichenluft · Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:06 am Post subject:

actually a-normal (A1) is not "excellent" - it is a-normal. A-normal pretty much includes what would be excellent, good, and fair in OFA ratings. They are "normal" and that's what they are called, not "excellent". There is no "excellent" rating in Germany - though a1 or a-normal is the best possible.

Gala's hips look good! The positioning however is not straight - if it were straight, then the right hip would look better (seated better in the socket) and the left hip wouldn't look as good as it does. The picture is fuzzy and the sockets/seating could be slightly deeper/tighter but overall I think her hips would come back "good"

thanks for sharing them!

molly
_________________
Eichenluft Working German Shepherd Dogs
home of V-Eagle v Eichenluft Schh3, FH,IPO3,KKl-1lbz,OFA Good.
4 Eichenluft Dogs competed in 2005 Schh3 National Championships!
Over 40 working-titled Eichenluft dogs.
http://workinggermanshepherd.com

ZalDante · Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:25 am Post subject:

It seems to go....(approximately)......
European
A1 rating = OFA Excellent
A2 = OFA Good
A3 = I assume OFA FAIR

Guess my confusion is when some of these breeders list hip ratings they sometime include Excellent beside their A1. And in Germany all three ratings appear to be NORMAL.

http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html#ex
_________________
Haus Vonzal German Shepherds
www.hausvonzal.com

eichenluft · Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:43 am Post subject:

I disagree. A1 (normal) will encompass the whole range of passing OFA ratings - excellent to fair. I would say most a-normal dogs would go OFA good. There is no "excellent" in the a-stamp ratings. I would guess the A2 (fast-normal) ratings would be close to OFA good to Fair, with some possibly Borderline. A3 (NZ) would be OFA Fair to not passing, but probably not severe. And there are always exceptions, but I think this is the norm from what I've seen and heard.

molly
_________________
Eichenluft Working German Shepherd Dogs
home of V-Eagle v Eichenluft Schh3, FH,IPO3,KKl-1lbz,OFA Good.
4 Eichenluft Dogs competed in 2005 Schh3 National Championships!
Over 40 working-titled Eichenluft dogs.
http://workinggermanshepherd.com

blitzen · Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:26 am Post subject:

Agree with Molly - OFA preliminary good for Gala.

The OFA site will tell you the percentage of excellent, good, fair ratings assigned to all breeds. Of course these number are based only on the xrays they see. It is assumed that they never see most xrays of dogs that are obvioulsy dysplastic, so these figures will be skewed and not representative of the entire GSD population. I don't know enough to compare the SV rating to OFA's.

Statistics seem to indicate that breeds with the most dogs with excellent hips tend to produce fewer cases of HD. If you factor into the equation the use of NZ dogs and their presence in the first 3, 4 generations of many imported pedigrees, it's not hard to understand why more GSD's do not receive excellent ratings. Increasing the percentage of OFA excellents in this breed would be possible, but it could mean sacrificing other traits for excellent hips.

If breeding good dogs were easy, everyone would be doing it LOL.

BettyL · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: New hip xrays

I had Caymans hips and elbows done today. He turned two years old on Feb 6th. I did have prelims done and sent to OFA a while ago. I won't say yet how OFA rated his prelims.

Opinions please!!

Hips

Elbows

Thanks in advance!!

Kim, PM me or call me! I have that answer to that question you asked a few weeks back! I actually have a definite answer now! LOL
_________________
~~Betty~~

Home to:
Bismarch, BH,CGC, TT, TD
Frieda
Taser, BH, AD, CGC , TT and 2/3 of the CD
Cayman vom Nordsturm, SchH 2, BH, AD,CGC, TT
Carlo vom Tauglichkeit, BH, AD

eichenluft · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject:

My opinion is, the x-rays are positioned almost straight - "straight enough" though if the right hip (left looking at the x-ray) was straighter, it would probably look just a little bit tighter in the socket than it does. Overall, nice hips. Clean, tidy - no sign of "fuzzies" or rough edges. But they could be better - the femur heads both could be rounder - they have some flattening and a little bit of "point" especially the left hip (right if looking at the x-ray). But the necks are clean, no thickening, the sockets are clean and deep enough - the seating is deep and tight enough. I'd say they would still go "Good" but I wouldn't be surprised at "Fair" if the OFA board were not in a good mood when they look at them.

molly
_________________
Eichenluft Working German Shepherd Dogs
home of V-Eagle v Eichenluft Schh3, FH,IPO3,KKl-1lbz,OFA Good.
4 Eichenluft Dogs competed in 2005 Schh3 National Championships!
Over 40 working-titled Eichenluft dogs.
http://workinggermanshepherd.com

BettyL · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject:

Thanks Molly! I could see right away that he wasn't as straight as Carlo was when he had his done. I'll keep my fingers crossed that he does OFA Good, but if he goes Fair, he goes Fair. I'm not planning on breeding him anyway. The xrays are more so I know he doesn't have HD and for his breeder so she can see how the whole litter is.

One of his littermates in Germany is a1. She doesn't have the results up for the other littermate in Germany yet. His littermate here in New England will be going in for his xrays soon.

Comparing his to Carlo's, even tho Carlo was 6 mos old when his were done, I can see exactly what you are saying! Thanks again!! I appreciate it!
_________________
~~Betty~~

Home to:
Bismarch, BH,CGC, TT, TD
Frieda
Taser, BH, AD, CGC , TT and 2/3 of the CD
Cayman vom Nordsturm, SchH 2, BH, AD,CGC, TT
Carlo vom Tauglichkeit, BH, AD

blitzen · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject:

My guess on hips - OFA good. Elbows I know nothing about.
_________________
"What happens to a dream deferred? Does it dry up like a raisin in the sun?...Or does it explode?" - Langston Hughes

saddlebred16 · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject:

Hips OFA good if the tester is happy, fair if they arent. Elbows normal.
_________________
Jen
UCD, UCH, SG Rebel, BH, CGC, 2/3 of CD, 2x Total Dog, TDI, DNA
UCH Bullet, CGC, TDI, DNA
SG Laika, CGC, TDI, DNA
Nemo, CGC, TDI

Waiting over the bridge:
UCD Ranger, BH, SD, CGC, TDI 11/21/04-8/7/09
Forever would have been too short