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"Roach-backed" GSD
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crhuerta
moderator

Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 295

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject: "Roach-backed" GSD

I read posts from several boards, and I noticed that people use the term.."Roach back" quite alot to describe different dogs. I would like to know how many people actually know what a true "roach-back" is???? The GSD should have a firm , straight to slightly sloping topline. The withers should always be the highest point of the dog's topline. A true "roached back" is arched or curved upwards like a Whippet. It is just as incorrect as a "level" topline. ...I was just observing....... Robin _________________ HUERTA HOF GERMAN SHEPHERDS ....where breeding is still considered an art...

geronimo
Member

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Dixon, CA

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:34 am Post subject: Re: "Roach-backed" GSD

[quote="crhuerta"]I would like to know how many people actually know what a true "roach-back" is???? The GSD should have a firm , straight to slightly sloping topline. The withers should always be the highest point of the dog's topline. A true "roached back" is arched or curved upwards like a Whippet. It is just as incorrect as a "level" topline. Robin

*************************************************************
No, a roachback is not at all like that of whippet--but exactly like this COCKROACH:

The back as described in the Whippet standard:

The back is broad, firm and well muscled, having length over the loin. The backline runs smoothly from the withers with a graceful natural arch, not too accentuated, beginning over the loin and carrying through over the croup; the arch is continuous without flatness. A dip behind shoulder blades, wheelback, flat back, or a steep or flat croup, should be penalized.

The GSD back per the FCI standard:

The back, including the loins, is straight and strongly developed yet not too long between the withers and the croup. The withers must be long and high, sloping slightly from front to rear, defined against the back into which it gently blends without breaking the topline. The loins must be wide, strong and well muscled. The croup is long and slightly angled (approximately 23 degrees). The ileum and the sacrum are the foundation bones of the croup. Short, steep or flat croups are undesirable.

IOW, when comparing backs, the GSD has more in common with the Whippet than with the cockroach :idea:

Alas, I cannot locate a breed standard for the cockroach :!:

:mrgreen:

Louise

lonewulf
Master Member

Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 978
Location: Vienna, VA

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:47 am Post subject:

Quote:

Alas, I cannot locate a breed standard for the cockroach

That is amusing given that the common cockroach has been around for a 100 million years as opposed to a little over 100 years for the GSD
_________________
The Power of the Teacher lies in the submission of the student...
www.vombhairav.com
V (USA) Juneau vom Haus Tyson SchH 3 x 6; Kkl-1; HOT; G- NE REgionals 2008; 2008 USA Nationals competitor
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/picturegallery/6551.html

eichenluft
moderator

Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 1051
Location: central PA

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:52 am Post subject:

VERY interesting, thanks Ravi!!!!! molly _________________ Eichenluft Working German Shepherd Dogs home of V-Eagle v Eichenluft Schh3, FH,IPO3,KKl-1lbz,OFA Good. 4 Eichenluft Dogs competed in 2005 Schh3 National Championships! Over 40 working-titled Eichenluft dogs. http://workinggermanshepherd.com

blitzen
Star Member

Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 3617
Location: FL

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject:

All rightie then, does the GSD in Louise's photo have a correct topline or not? I have no clue who this dog is, so not trying to be critical or a smartie pants. I'm trying to understand the dynamics of the correct imported GSD's topline. I just don't get it. Thanks.................. _________________ "What happens to a dream deferred? Does it dry up like a raisin in the sun?...Or does it explode?" - Langston Hughes

blitzen
Star Member

Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 3617
Location: FL

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject:

BTW I've seen a load of whippets at AKC shows with a far more pronouned arch than this one has. Most Borzois, Greyhounds, other coarsing hounds have a lot more arch than this dog. _________________ "What happens to a dream deferred? Does it dry up like a raisin in the sun?...Or does it explode?" - Langston Hughes

eichenluft
moderator

Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 1051
Location: central PA

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:22 pm Post subject:

excuse me - I meant to thank Louise for her detailed post - thank you Louise! molly _________________ Eichenluft Working German Shepherd Dogs home of V-Eagle v Eichenluft Schh3, FH,IPO3,KKl-1lbz,OFA Good. 4 Eichenluft Dogs competed in 2005 Schh3 National Championships! Over 40 working-titled Eichenluft dogs. http://workinggermanshepherd.com

crhuerta
moderator

Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 295

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject:

WOW Louise!....I need to get into theatrics too! Nice colored type and size......I can barely use my computer to read e-mail. However;...I was posting an example of a "roach-like" topline...just as one of my German Shepherd books did. I know: The TERM "roach-back"...is used to describe a topline where the "arch" of the back is higher than the wither.......just as the toplines of most Whippets, Bedlingtons etc... actually are. Most novice people who use the term "roach-back" when it comes to the GSD....have been conditioned, that everything with a "curve" is "roachie". That was the "small" point I was trying to make...... Maybe the GSD book I used to help make the comparison in the post....should research their terminoligy too.???? I don't want to offend any cockroach breeders!!!...hahahahaha Good post Louise! Robin _________________ HUERTA HOF GERMAN SHEPHERDS ....where breeding is still considered an art...

lonewulf
Master Member

Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 978
Location: Vienna, VA

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject:

Hey Molly! I was only trying to provide a little evolutionary perspective given the heated passion that this topic tends to generate. Just some sly tongue-in-cheek humor folks!! No offense intended. _________________ The Power of the Teacher lies in the submission of the student... www.vombhairav.com V (USA) Juneau vom Haus Tyson SchH 3 x 6; Kkl-1; HOT; G- NE REgionals 2008; 2008 USA Nationals competitor http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/picturegallery/6551.html

crhuerta
moderator

Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 295

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject:

Hey Lonewulf, I thought your post was funny!..........just like all of them. No offense taken here. Robin _________________ HUERTA HOF GERMAN SHEPHERDS ....where breeding is still considered an art...

eichenluft
moderator

Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 1051
Location: central PA

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:35 pm Post subject:

No offense Ravi - I just read through the posts too fast and thought the cockroach/whippet/GSD pictures/post was from you. Wanted to give proper credit - but I liked your post too, very much! Gave a good giggle, a laugh a day is good for anyone! Great thread! molly _________________ Eichenluft Working German Shepherd Dogs home of V-Eagle v Eichenluft Schh3, FH,IPO3,KKl-1lbz,OFA Good. 4 Eichenluft Dogs competed in 2005 Schh3 National Championships! Over 40 working-titled Eichenluft dogs. http://workinggermanshepherd.com

Sunshine
Star Member

Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 2919
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:37 pm Post subject:

Louise, You have done so much research on the "roach". Love it. I knew a couple of them when I lived in NYC. I think they move too fast for a breed survey. Hard to get them to stand for the exam. My question though: Is the "roach" back the same as the hyenna dogs??? Is this what is being referred to? M. _________________ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ My sunshine doesn't come from the skies, it comes from the love in my dog's eyes. Unknown

Dawnmarie
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject:

crhuerta wrote:

I don't want to offend any cockroach breeders!!!...hahahahaha

Good post Louise!

Robin

hey... i resemble a cockaroach breeder... aka Dena :D

blitzen
Star Member

Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 3617
Location: FL

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject:

I wonder if one would breed a roach to a waterbug the progeny would have flat toplines ......or would half have roaches, the other half flat.....would all the progeny carry the flatback gene recessively????? _________________ "What happens to a dream deferred? Does it dry up like a raisin in the sun?...Or does it explode?" - Langston Hughes

Sunshine
Star Member

Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 2919
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:46 pm Post subject:

Louise, please present a picture of a waterbug, so I can understand the breed betterment Blitzen is recommending. You guys are great. Smile or whatever thing majig I cannot operate. Like one of those Greenboard bananas.. . . M. _________________ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ My sunshine doesn't come from the skies, it comes from the love in my dog's eyes. Unknown

geronimo
Member

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Dixon, CA

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:30 am Post subject:

blitzen wrote:

All rightie then, does the GSD in Louise's photo have a correct topline or not? I have no clue who this dog is, so not trying to be critical or a smartie pants. I'm trying to understand the dynamics of the correct imported GSD's topline. I just don't get it. Thanks..................

*************************************************************

The GSD illustration of structure was borrowed from the Pedigree Database. I may have seen it in an URMA book a few years back.

OK, here is photo of a currently winning dog with reasonably correct structure:

Here is the same dog's sidegait:

A roachy dog standing:

Sidegait of a roachy dog (BTW, a brother to a multiple VA winning GSD with cockroach propensities):

Compare with other brother cockroach:

Hey, knock it off, dammit--we're not cockroaches Rolling Eyes

Louise

geronimo
Member

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Dixon, CA

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:38 am Post subject:

blitzen wrote:

BTW I've seen a load of whippets at AKC shows with a far more pronouned arch than this one has. Most Borzois, Greyhounds, other coarsing hounds have a lot more arch than this dog.

*************************************************************
I don't doubt this--one can see faulty representatives of any breed at any show. Re-read how the standard describes the Whippet back.

My friend of some 40 years, Carol R. Curry, breeds some of the finest Whippets in the country. She had GSD's before she became involved in Whippets. Carol is a licensed AKC judge of many breeds (not limited to GSD's and Whippets).

We always used to joke that Carol's Whippets moved like GSD's. She was a fanatic about movement. She gave my Ch Riesenblut's Valor his first championship points as well as his final points.

Here are a few of her winning Whippets:

Did I take you by surprise again?? :mrgreen:

Louise

blitzen
Star Member

Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 3617
Location: FL

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:13 am Post subject:

I guess it depends on where whippets are shown. I would agree that those pictured represent the ideal whippet topline per their standard. Around here they don't look that good. Now riddle me this - why do some GSD's look "roachy" when stacked and when moving, but do not stand that way naturally? I noticed that at NASS. Is it handler's error or is it done deliberately for god knows what reason? Now here's where I need more help - even the first dog in Louise's photos looks roachy to me, but I suspect most of you would consider that a correct topline. Right? The other dogs just look like they are in pain except for the pair that are butt to butt. They just look ....satisfied. Is that a male or a female cockroach, Lousie? American or German? Do those "horns" on the back end indicate the sex or are they purely ornamental?

eichenluft
moderator

Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 1051
Location: central PA

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:19 am Post subject:

GREAT Louise - I'm really impressed. Thanks so much for sharing!!!! Your stolen picture too - stole it off the database did'ya??? Gotta watch out for that, you might be attacked and kicked off there for THAT (LOLOL) I also hate the "hinge-back" - do you have pictures of dogs with "hinge-back"? I just hate that. molly _________________ Eichenluft Working German Shepherd Dogs home of V-Eagle v Eichenluft Schh3, FH,IPO3,KKl-1lbz,OFA Good. 4 Eichenluft Dogs competed in 2005 Schh3 National Championships! Over 40 working-titled Eichenluft dogs. http://workinggermanshepherd.com

blitzen
Star Member

Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 3617
Location: FL

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:49 am Post subject:

Even though your last illustration is from the GSDCA Illustrated Standard, I challenge anyone to find a GSD in the AKC show ring that looks like that LOL. I hear that club is revising this IS to reflect the type of dog being shown and winning today. Changing the standard to fit the dog rather that breeding the dog to conform to the standard? Still I think this IS is a very good one and a nice example to suggest to anyone looking to understand the dynamics of dog structure and its effect on the movement of the GSD. _________________ "What happens to a dream deferred? Does it dry up like a raisin in the sun?...Or does it explode?" - Langston Hughes

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